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Euroasian Jewish News
Rabbi Andrew Baker's interview.
15.07.2005 WE TALKED TO THE GOVERNMENT THAT COULD BE A TRUE PARTNER
Due to lots of meetings scheduled for the members of the American Jewish Committee's diplomatic mission it was hard to find time for interview, but Rabbi Andrew Baker, Director of International Jewish Affairs of the American Jewish Committee, kindly welcomed us in the hall of "Premier-Palace" hotel to answer a few questions instead of his lunch. It is obvious, that his answers will be interesting not only to Jews of Ukraine, but also to everyone interested in further cooperation between our countries and people.
- Could You please share your impressions about the trip to Ukraine and meetings at various levels?
- I would like to divide my impressions into two parts. The first relates to meetings with members of the Jewish community, and the second - with Ukrainian government officials. Unfortunately, our visit was brief therefore the impression about life of the Jewish community can't be full. But, certainly, it differs much from that during the previous visits. It seems to me that Jewish community of Ukraine appears more prosperous, organized and self-assured.
We have come, as anyone from abroad, with a certain feeling of positive developments of democracy in Ukraine. Everyone knows that the "orange revolution" has already become an international symbol. In some ways, I think, it made our discussions with government officials easier. Our American experience has taught us one basic principle: a society that is open, democratic and sensitive to all minorities is best for Jews. It does not mean absence of problems, but it means better security. Former heads of Ukraine were not so sensitive to the minorities and discussed the respective problems in more general form. Here we felt that we talked to the government that could be a true partner in resolving of all the issues related to minorities' life.
We met with Prime-Minister Yulia Timoshenko, the State secretary Alexander Zinchenko, the Deputy Foreign Minister Oleh Shamshur. Our visit also coincided with a high-level visit from the US State Department. In the course of the day we also talked to Assistant Secretary Dan Fried, who headed that delegation and in the end of the day with John Herbst, American ambassador to Ukraine. In all those discussions we spoke about anti-Semitism, the problem of MAUP and the importance of restitution to the Jewish Community - probably the most interesting issues for You.
There is recognition that the problem of MAUP is an international one. We have always said that it is extremely important that political leaders of the highest level opposed to anti-Semitism. And we have repeated this message here in Ukraine. Everyone to whom we spoke about the problems of restitution understood its importance, though it seems clear that the government officials see many problems related to this process. It is not surprising, in fact it includes problems in relations with the other minorities which also have property claims, practical problems of returning the buildings occupied by other people and organizations and absence of means to pay compensations. But in these discussions we emphasized that the process of restitution hasn't been easy in neighboring western states also. And if Ukraine is looking to follow the path of Poland and the others, it has to deal with this question. And I think this message was received by the officials.
We spoke to ambassador Herbst and understood that it is a particularly difficult time for Ukraine with regard to economic concerns. In all of our meetings with government officials we have heard from government officials their interest about three main matters: designation as a market economy market economy, membership in the WTO and graduation from the Jackson-Vanik amendment. In some cases I'm not sure that political leadership here recognizes the difference between these components. Membership in the WTO is directly dependent on reforms in Ukrainian economy, a remove of the price control and tariffs, and, in essence, opening of Ukraine to investments and import. Jackson-Vanik amendment is actually a symbolical question. Because, if Ukraine meets the criteria for membership in the WTO then Jackson-Vanik will not be applicable. At the same time, we know, that Jackson-Vanik is the symbol of an association with the old times. And in our meetings with the government officials members of the mission expressed our views that we want to be supportive and helpful for Ukraine to see its graduation from Jackson-Vanik amendment. We hope, that in this regard we can work together with the government.
- What influence does the American Jewish Committee have to help Ukraine graduate from Jackson-Vanik amendment?
- Jackson-Vanick amendment was applied in relation to the Soviet Union and then to all the states which have formed after its collapse. For many years, the amendment was not applied to the most of those states including Ukraine but, nevertheless, existed. I think in a few cases there are other issues that would be more important in the decisions of the US Government. I mean that the majority of American congressmen have looked at the Jewish community from the point of view of Jackson-Vanik amendment. We know that its origins concerned freedom of emigration for the Jews. But over the last decade it has been a mean to talk about freedom of Jewish community, anti-Semitism, restitution and other issues faced by the Jewish community. Traditionally the congress looks at the Jewish organizations with regard to Jackson-Vanik amendment and we have seen it as a mean to talk about various Jewish issues. For the most part, it means that if we or another influential Jewish organization in America will think that Ukraine should be graduated they will hear our voice. The American government supports Ukraine's graduation from Jackson-Vanik and we support the Ukrainian government in its aspiration to achieve graduation from the amendment. I think that in could happen in the nearest future. But, certainly, it does not mean that Ukraine will automatically become a member of WTO on elimination of the Amendment. And this is what the US ambassador to Ukraine and the US delegation members are trying to emphasize in discussions with Ukrainian government. The government has to take certain measures now, it may be a complicated task but it is necessary to do right now.
- How do you evaluate the readiness of the Ukrainian government to combat anti-Semitism?
- First of all, our opinion is based on conversations with people who have come from here or live here and have described to us the situation in Ukraine. We are often said that there is no country, where anti-Semitism is absent. Therefore, in some way the question concerns comparison between Ukraine and other countries. In my opinion, the situation in Ukraine isn't much worse, than in other countries, moreover in some aspects it is even better. You do not have mainstream political leaders utilizing anti-Semitism as a mean to win votes. People tell us, that Jews feel comfortable walking in kippah around Kiev, which, in fact, has become a matter of concern in many Western European countries. Our discussions of anti-Semitism with the government were focused on the issue of MAUP and we tried to emphasize the importance that the highest political leaders clearly stated their position concerning this problem. We suggested that the President himself addressed to the people. Perhaps he will. I don't think it could be a final measure to deal with the problem, but I do feel that this government does not want to see manifestations of anti-Semitism in the country and displays of anti-Semitism through publications in the mass-media.
- Restitution is a process of returning the communal property, but pre-revolutionary Jewish community of Ukraine was religious. It possessed a synagogue, a cemetery, Talmud-torah and other organizations, its members paid tzedakah. Nowadays Jewish organizations in Ukraine are mainly secular. Would then restitution in their favor be a correct step?
- The approach should be modern. You already have a wide spectrum of Jewish life: synagogues and cemeteries, religious schools, mikvahs, communal institutions, hospitals, old people's homes and more secular institutions - sports clubs, cultural centers, libraries etc. I believe that with regard to the restitution the most effective would be a model, when there is a national "umbrella" organization representing the organizations related to all the aspects of Jewish activity and representing the Jewish community in claims for return of pre-revolutionary Jewish property. There is a need to create such an organization in Ukraine. And I am also certain, that there existed not only religious Jewish organizations in pre-revolutionary Ukraine, but those secular as well. This is a principle with which we should start. Actually if we look at the countries, where restitution has already taken place, the volumes of the returned property is much less, than should have been. But it is a result of compromise being inevitable part of any negotiations.
- Increase of independence of the Jewish communities, financial self-sufficiency achieved through restitution will, obviously, lead to reduction of volumes and shift of priorities in activity of the American Jewish Committee. Given such a perspective what would be key directions of your activity?
- I think that it would be more equal relations. We, the American Jewish Committee, are not a social service organization; we are not in the business of providing funds. Therefore, I think, we have had more equal relationships with the Jewish leadership in Ukraine and in other countries for some years already. We think we can learn from each other. We want to be helpful, because we happen to live in the United States, where there is strong government which developed good relations with your country and others, the government understands our issues, makes them part of the American ones and acts accordingly. Therefore combating anti-Semitism, promoting restitution are parts of the policy of American government but not a problem of American Jewish organizations only. And this is the way we help each other and work together. Perhaps a kind of relationships that the American Jewish committee has with the Jewish leadership in Ukraine will become a model for relationships with other organizations like "Joint".
- What are Your wishes to the Jewish community of Ukraine.
- I think that my main wish to the Jewish community of Ukraine and other countries is that they have a future, and everything that it means: a place to build Jewish life and house for your children, an opportunity to recapture the sense of history and tradition of Jewish life that existed here for centuries, safety and security to live comfortably. We all know about tragic periods in Jewish history and nobody can foresee the future. But you should always remember that you have friends in the United States and in Israel who are ready to provide you with certain safety. But as far as you have chosen a way of revival of the Jewish life here, in Ukraine, I hope you will prosper and succeed.
EAJC press-service. Kiev.
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